--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "cees" <c.olgers@...> wrote:
>
> I think the USB stuff is beyond the knowledge, for the developers.
>
> I am busy with the KFLOP and Kanalog now for 4 months without pauses.
>
> What I have seen, in this period.
>
> Ghost, viruses, voodoo perhaps???
>
> No!!
>
> This USB is not for the real world.
>
> A mice, or a printer, Yes okay, CNC with heavy motors and heavy drives like
> a 4KW radar beam it is no good!!
>
> It is not stable in a professionally CNC environment.
>
> It sucks!!
>
> Electrical noise, and a progam what is in a kind of experimental stage.
>
> We have to send Tom back to his developers bench.
>
> I am sorry, to have such a hard verdict.
>
> But I am on the place where I started four months ago, .. How do I control
> the beast.
>
>
>
> Best Regards / M.vr.gr
>
> Cees
>
>
>
> C.J. Olgers
>
> Lemmerkade 38 8244DC
>
> Lelystad-Haven
>
> Tel. : 0320-842939
>
> Mobiel: 0624718690
>
> K.v.K. Lelystad 34071687
>
> b.t.w. nr. NL063838771B01
>
> <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/> http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl
>
> <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm>
> http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm
>
> <http://www.cncfrees.nl/> http://www.cncfrees.nl/
>

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> I have no idea why this is occurring.  Could you provide more information?  Such as when you say everything was working then failed, what was working?  Jogging or GCode motion or sitting idle? 
>
> Do you have the Keling wired up to the Aux1 connector?
>
> Possibilities I can think of might be:
>
> #1 - We don't have any protection against jogging on the MPG while GCode is running.  To eliminate this as a possibility try re-assigning the A B Quadrature inputs to 46 and 47 (The KFlop LEDS) and see if a problem ever occurs (of course you wont be able to test jogging with the MPG).
>
> #2 - I just realized we are connecting 5V outputs to 3.3V inputs (with an internal 150 ohm pull down).   I doubt if this is a problem unless the MPG is driving the signals hard above 3.9V (because the 3.3V inputs are diode clamped to the 3.3V power rail).  Please check the outputs to see what voltage they rise to.  The ideal test would be disconnected from the KFlop and with a 150ohm pulldown resistor.   Or add 50 ohm series resistors to be safe.
>
> #3 - Possibly just the long MPG cable picking up noise and injecting it into the system?  Is there a shield?   How is it grounded?
>
> Sorry that is all I can think of.
>
> Regards
> TK
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: bigtoy302 <bigtoy302@...>
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 7:27:47 PM
> Subject: [DynoMotion] MPG problems
>
>  
> I am in the process of getting my system all set up. I have a Kflop, snapamp, and kanalog together. I have everything tuned and I can jog everything just fine. So I installed my Keling MPG and everything was working good for a few minutes then all the sudden the x and y servos powered off the snapamp started twitching back and forth then would fault then spin out of control. If I unplug the mpg the motors work fine. As soon as I plug it back in the freak out again. If I unplug the snapamp I can still jog the Z ( powered from the kanalog just fine)with the mpg. I am running Mach also.
>
> Ryan
>

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "cees" <c.olgers@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew
>
>
>
> Ok, I am to harsh on Tom, he is very helpful to me also.
>
> But I don't know where to look anymore.
>
> Yesterday it was again no joy, after a few weeks searching for "personality
> modules for my old analog electro craft BRU 200 drives, without luck.
>
> I came to the conclusion that these modules have some data burned in for a
> motor what is attached at this drive, they have a battery what hold fine
> tuning data for the P.I.D. parameters.
>
> So they have basic information in them for the specific motor, and then you
> can auto tune them with Hyperterminal .
>
> This fine tuning can also be done in Kmotion, and then you can store this
> data in a C-progam.
>
> So there is no need to have the fine tuning P.I.D. data stored in the
> personality module, ( after ten years these modules have to replaced because
> the onboard battery has died)
>
> But the basic parameters are still there.
>
> So with this knowledge, I started with: a virus scan on my computer,
> installed the service pack 2 usb driver because it is faster, I had
> installed from the computer and all other gadgets and encoder 6mm² ground
> wires to a big copper strip in the electrical cabinet to get a star shaped
> grounding, to eliminate the electrical noise .
>
>
>
> You have to know that all this was after I have got the machine running in
> December, it did three axes and spindle. And I was happy as a child.
>
> This was a beginning, because it has limit switches, a pneumatic driven 8
> tools changer on his arm on the Y axe, so I had more hair loss to go. I want
> to start something simple, I tried the Xbox plug-in with a wireless Xbox
> controller, with this plug-in the machine went nuts, and drive the 1500kg X
> axe with the speed of light to my neighbor across the street.
>
> I had uninstalled the plug-in, and now for some strange reason I know the
> C-progam file was changed, the input gain for the X axe was changed from -1
> to plus 1, this looks like a minor case, but there is suddenly a 10 volt
> output on the analog drive and he is going on maximum speed to his grave.
>
>
>
> Yesterday I made a new start, made a new tuning C-progam al from the start.
>
> After this it was running again. Now the next step, I putted in the C-progam
> for the Limit switches to get them working.
>
> I had them at first configurated in Mach3 but there was a problem with the
> in and outputs above 128 for some reason, so with the help of Tom I wrote
> the C-progam.
>
> I must say, I don't have any experience with this kind of programming, I
> don't understand this Kmotion software for more than 5%.
>
> It is all new for me, I have build three stepper machines, and that's all,
> never heard about P.I.D. before and no experience with servo motors.
>
> Then there is the Language, I am Dutch so the manuals are a kind of Chinese
> for me.
>
>
>
> After the lunch break I started the machine again, my wife was there to look
> at my progress and to see it move again properly.
>
> Now the Y axe went nuts and hit the end of his travel so hard, that the end
> plate (15mm thick steel plate was bend) and the steel bearing balls went
> ejected from the ball bearing nut.
>
> Another change in the Init C-progam, again a gain what was changed from 1 to
> -1.
>
> So I did change it back, get rid of the home limit progam, to get again in
> the state I was before, with no luck.
>
> Now it is telling me all kind of fault messages, and I am not able to get
> the three axes running like they did.
>
> I don't know anymore, and I am freightfull to start it again.
>
>
>
> Conclusion:
>
>
>
> I don't understand the Kmotion software enough.
>
> The software and Kflop comes from a guy who is willing to give all the help
> I need.
>
> I am a sort of experimental object.
>
> Mach3 has 9 years of history with now about 12000 users, with all there
> specific needs and bugs they found out. Brian Barker is rewriting it now,
> and he hopes to get it done at the end of this year.
>
> So I know it is very complex.
>
> I have no luck.
>
>
>
> So my mail was not intended to burn Tom to the ground.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Cees
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Van: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com [mailto: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com] Namens
> babinda01
> Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2010 23:00
> Aan: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Onderwerp: [DynoMotion] Re: MPG problems
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Cees,
> I have been a CNC integrator of many years now, mainly on large machinery ie
> milling machines with 10+meters of travel in the X axis and 50 to 100Kw VFD
> Spindle drives. Noise is ALWAYS an issue - I have seen even the most
> hardened "Commercial Control" have issues in regard to noise.
>
> Having said that, I have been installing a system using the Kflop & Kanalog
> for a while now too. I have had a few issues and a few problems, BUT Tom has
> always helped me out - most of these problems were my own lack of knowledge,
> some were features missing from the kflop/kanalog, but as I said Tom helped
> me out each time.
>
> I too am unsure about USB and motion control, I have seen it fail (or not
> work properly) on two other recent USB based motion devices. I KNOW Windows
> is evil, evil, evil, terrible, terrible, terrible and shouldn't be used for
> motion control - and that is why we need devices like the kflop/kanalog.
> Some thing COULD be done differently to enhance the system, but all this
> knowledge and after thought comes from other peoples experience using the
> device in different situations, there is no amount of testing on a bench
> that can make up for real world experience. If you want a good system for
> industrial use, the newer Fanuc controls are great, but they come at a
> price. So we all need to have a bit of give and take, and work together to
> get a system that works for the price we are willing to pay.
>
> I have only this week got my machine running with the kflop/kanalog, and I
> will be testing it more intensly this week and next to see how it performs,
> and to see if I have any "Ghosts" hiding in my system. I am using AC servo
> motors and drives and have two VFD's controlling two spindles, I have all
> this crammed into one small electrical enclosure. The other day I was
> running some homing tests with rapid rates up around the 50 - 75
> Meters/Minute and I homed to within about .01mm each time, so I have no
> issues with the accuracy of the system.
>
> I feel you are being a little to harsh on Tom, he has been helpful to me.
> I don't mean this post to be a bash up Cees post, so please don't take it
> that way. I can understand your frustration and I share your concerns about
> USB. But I do feel that you will get your system working with Toms help.
>
> Regards
> Andrew Erwood
> AKSYS Tech Pty Ltd
> Australia
> andrew@... <mailto:andrew%40aksystech.com>
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DynoMotion%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "cees" <c.olgers@> wrote:
> >
> > I think the USB stuff is beyond the knowledge, for the developers.
> >
> > I am busy with the KFLOP and Kanalog now for 4 months without pauses.
> >
> > What I have seen, in this period.
> >
> > Ghost, viruses, voodoo perhaps???
> >
> > No!!
> >
> > This USB is not for the real world.
> >
> > A mice, or a printer, Yes okay, CNC with heavy motors and heavy drives
> like
> > a 4KW radar beam it is no good!!
> >
> > It is not stable in a professionally CNC environment.
> >
> > It sucks!!
> >
> > Electrical noise, and a progam what is in a kind of experimental stage.
> >
> > We have to send Tom back to his developers bench.
> >
> > I am sorry, to have such a hard verdict.
> >
> > But I am on the place where I started four months ago, .. How do I control
> > the beast.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards / M.vr.gr
> >
> > Cees
> >
> >
> >
> > C.J. Olgers
> >
> > Lemmerkade 38 8244DC
> >
> > Lelystad-Haven
> >
> > Tel. : 0320-842939
> >
> > Mobiel: 0624718690
> >
> > K.v.K. Lelystad 34071687
> >
> > b.t.w. nr. NL063838771B01
> >
> > <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/> http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl
> >
> > <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm>
> > http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm
> >
> > <http://www.cncfrees.nl/> http://www.cncfrees.nl/
> >
>

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "babinda01" <a_k@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cees,
>
> WOW!!!!! I think I would be bald by now (from pulling my hair out).
> Firstly in regard to the I/O bits above 128 - Tom has rewitten the Mach3 plug-in to handle these now - this was one of the issues I had problem with, that I mentioned in my last post.
>
> I know mach3 has been around for quite some time and has quite a lot of happy users - BUT - it is not perfect, the current project I have been working on has been a long project which started nearly three year ago, when I was contracted to write some software to control these machines. The company who contracted me specified that Mach3 must be the CNC engine behind the software, and so I did as they asked, but it was a major task, I found major problems with the macropump and with scripting in general within mach, and in the end I ended up rewritting the macropump (now controlled by my program and not mach3) so that I could get it to work properly.
>
> Firstly change all your velocities to a much lower level until you get your system sorted, this will stop it taking off like the devil and causing you more grief than you need. Once things are running well then ramp them up.
>
> Try and use as few plugin as possible with mach - I don't know anything about the 360 plugin. But I would ditch it until you are happy with the machine in a basic state.
>
> I know some of this you have/are trying - but if you can get things working in stages it may make life easier for you.
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "cees" <c.olgers@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> > Ok, I am to harsh on Tom, he is very helpful to me also.
> >
> > But I don't know where to look anymore.
> >
> > Yesterday it was again no joy, after a few weeks searching for "personality
> > modules for my old analog electro craft BRU 200 drives, without luck.
> >
> > I came to the conclusion that these modules have some data burned in for a
> > motor what is attached at this drive, they have a battery what hold fine
> > tuning data for the P.I.D. parameters.
> >
> > So they have basic information in them for the specific motor, and then you
> > can auto tune them with Hyperterminal .
> >
> > This fine tuning can also be done in Kmotion, and then you can store this
> > data in a C-progam.
> >
> > So there is no need to have the fine tuning P.I.D. data stored in the
> > personality module, ( after ten years these modules have to replaced because
> > the onboard battery has died)
> >
> > But the basic parameters are still there.
> >
> > So with this knowledge, I started with: a virus scan on my computer,
> > installed the service pack 2 usb driver because it is faster, I had
> > installed from the computer and all other gadgets and encoder 6mm² ground
> > wires to a big copper strip in the electrical cabinet to get a star shaped
> > grounding, to eliminate the electrical noise .
> >
> >
> >
> > You have to know that all this was after I have got the machine running in
> > December, it did three axes and spindle. And I was happy as a child.
> >
> > This was a beginning, because it has limit switches, a pneumatic driven 8
> > tools changer on his arm on the Y axe, so I had more hair loss to go. I want
> > to start something simple, I tried the Xbox plug-in with a wireless Xbox
> > controller, with this plug-in the machine went nuts, and drive the 1500kg X
> > axe with the speed of light to my neighbor across the street.
> >
> > I had uninstalled the plug-in, and now for some strange reason I know the
> > C-progam file was changed, the input gain for the X axe was changed from -1
> > to plus 1, this looks like a minor case, but there is suddenly a 10 volt
> > output on the analog drive and he is going on maximum speed to his grave.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yesterday I made a new start, made a new tuning C-progam al from the start.
> >
> > After this it was running again. Now the next step, I putted in the C-progam
> > for the Limit switches to get them working.
> >
> > I had them at first configurated in Mach3 but there was a problem with the
> > in and outputs above 128 for some reason, so with the help of Tom I wrote
> > the C-progam.
> >
> > I must say, I don't have any experience with this kind of programming, I
> > don't understand this Kmotion software for more than 5%.
> >
> > It is all new for me, I have build three stepper machines, and that's all,
> > never heard about P.I.D. before and no experience with servo motors.
> >
> > Then there is the Language, I am Dutch so the manuals are a kind of Chinese
> > for me.
> >
> >
> >
> > After the lunch break I started the machine again, my wife was there to look
> > at my progress and to see it move again properly.
> >
> > Now the Y axe went nuts and hit the end of his travel so hard, that the end
> > plate (15mm thick steel plate was bend) and the steel bearing balls went
> > ejected from the ball bearing nut.
> >
> > Another change in the Init C-progam, again a gain what was changed from 1 to
> > -1.
> >
> > So I did change it back, get rid of the home limit progam, to get again in
> > the state I was before, with no luck.
> >
> > Now it is telling me all kind of fault messages, and I am not able to get
> > the three axes running like they did.
> >
> > I don't know anymore, and I am freightfull to start it again.
> >
> >
> >
> > Conclusion:
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't understand the Kmotion software enough.
> >
> > The software and Kflop comes from a guy who is willing to give all the help
> > I need.
> >
> > I am a sort of experimental object.
> >
> > Mach3 has 9 years of history with now about 12000 users, with all there
> > specific needs and bugs they found out. Brian Barker is rewriting it now,
> > and he hopes to get it done at the end of this year.
> >
> > So I know it is very complex.
> >
> > I have no luck.
> >
> >
> >
> > So my mail was not intended to burn Tom to the ground.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cees
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Van: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com [mailto: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com] Namens
> > babinda01
> > Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2010 23:00
> > Aan: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > Onderwerp: [DynoMotion] Re: MPG problems
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Cees,
> > I have been a CNC integrator of many years now, mainly on large machinery ie
> > milling machines with 10+meters of travel in the X axis and 50 to 100Kw VFD
> > Spindle drives. Noise is ALWAYS an issue - I have seen even the most
> > hardened "Commercial Control" have issues in regard to noise.
> >
> > Having said that, I have been installing a system using the Kflop & Kanalog
> > for a while now too. I have had a few issues and a few problems, BUT Tom has
> > always helped me out - most of these problems were my own lack of knowledge,
> > some were features missing from the kflop/kanalog, but as I said Tom helped
> > me out each time.
> >
> > I too am unsure about USB and motion control, I have seen it fail (or not
> > work properly) on two other recent USB based motion devices. I KNOW Windows
> > is evil, evil, evil, terrible, terrible, terrible and shouldn't be used for
> > motion control - and that is why we need devices like the kflop/kanalog.
> > Some thing COULD be done differently to enhance the system, but all this
> > knowledge and after thought comes from other peoples experience using the
> > device in different situations, there is no amount of testing on a bench
> > that can make up for real world experience. If you want a good system for
> > industrial use, the newer Fanuc controls are great, but they come at a
> > price. So we all need to have a bit of give and take, and work together to
> > get a system that works for the price we are willing to pay.
> >
> > I have only this week got my machine running with the kflop/kanalog, and I
> > will be testing it more intensly this week and next to see how it performs,
> > and to see if I have any "Ghosts" hiding in my system. I am using AC servo
> > motors and drives and have two VFD's controlling two spindles, I have all
> > this crammed into one small electrical enclosure. The other day I was
> > running some homing tests with rapid rates up around the 50 - 75
> > Meters/Minute and I homed to within about .01mm each time, so I have no
> > issues with the accuracy of the system.
> >
> > I feel you are being a little to harsh on Tom, he has been helpful to me.
> > I don't mean this post to be a bash up Cees post, so please don't take it
> > that way. I can understand your frustration and I share your concerns about
> > USB. But I do feel that you will get your system working with Toms help.
> >
> > Regards
> > Andrew Erwood
> > AKSYS Tech Pty Ltd
> > Australia
> > andrew@ <mailto:andrew%40aksystech.com>
> >
> > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DynoMotion%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > "cees" <c.olgers@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think the USB stuff is beyond the knowledge, for the developers.
> > >
> > > I am busy with the KFLOP and Kanalog now for 4 months without pauses.
> > >
> > > What I have seen, in this period.
> > >
> > > Ghost, viruses, voodoo perhaps???
> > >
> > > No!!
> > >
> > > This USB is not for the real world.
> > >
> > > A mice, or a printer, Yes okay, CNC with heavy motors and heavy drives
> > like
> > > a 4KW radar beam it is no good!!
> > >
> > > It is not stable in a professionally CNC environment.
> > >
> > > It sucks!!
> > >
> > > Electrical noise, and a progam what is in a kind of experimental stage.
> > >
> > > We have to send Tom back to his developers bench.
> > >
> > > I am sorry, to have such a hard verdict.
> > >
> > > But I am on the place where I started four months ago, .. How do I control
> > > the beast.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards / M.vr.gr
> > >
> > > Cees
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > C.J. Olgers
> > >
> > > Lemmerkade 38 8244DC
> > >
> > > Lelystad-Haven
> > >
> > > Tel. : 0320-842939
> > >
> > > Mobiel: 0624718690
> > >
> > > K.v.K. Lelystad 34071687
> > >
> > > b.t.w. nr. NL063838771B01
> > >
> > > <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/> http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl
> > >
> > > <http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm>
> > > http://www.olgerstimmerwerk.nl/digitizer/Digitizer.htm
> > >
> > > <http://www.cncfrees.nl/> http://www.cncfrees.nl/
> > >
> >
>